Yesterday, I had a wonderful experience at Mass. I was closer to the front, so I didn’t feel so crowded. It was actually a rather sparcely attended mass, relatively speaking. I ended up in a row where there was a family with a toddler, and during the whole mass at least one of the parents was outside with the toddler, so it was nice and roomy in my pew. I was able to follow along better in my red missal, so I didn’t feel so lost, and I was able to take advantage of the “sacred silence” during parts of the mass to pray and worship.
The reading for yesterday included this section, from John 10, which I’ve taken from the LDS scripture site (KJV) to show you how I’ve seen the scriptures my entire life:
- John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Here’s an explanation of how the LDS use this scripture to teach the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon:
While the Book of Mormon speaks with power to the issues that affect our modern society, the great and stirring burden of its message is a testimony, vibrant and true, that Jesus is the Christ, the promised Messiah, He who walked the dusty roads of Palestine healing the sick and teaching the doctrines of salvation; who died upon the cross of Calvary; who on the third day came forth from the tomb, appearing to many. Prior to His final Ascension, He visited the people of this Western Hemisphere, concerning whom He earlier had said, “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd” (John 10:16).
From A Testimony Vibrant and True
Ensign, August 2005
President Gordon B. Hinckley
Now, here’s a perspective on what non-Mormon Christians believe about the scripture:
The new prophet seized on Jesus’ words in John 10:16 (“I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd”) as proof of the Lord’s impending South American travel plans. The exegesis might impress one unfamiliar with the New Testament, but the usual understanding is that the “other sheep” Jesus referred to were the Gentiles, to whom the gospel also was extended.
Patrick Madrid, EWTN.com
It was such an odd sensation to hear someone Catholic read that scripture. I have such strong memories of being taught how to be a Member Missionary, and that is the first scripture I’d whip out to show Christians about Jesus mentioning the people on the other side of the world. It was so clear! Especially when put into context of this Book of Mormon scripture (emphasis added):
And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
And they [the Jews] understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.
And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice–that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.
But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me. (3 Nephi 15:21-24)
See? How do I know the Book of Mormon is true? It SAYS that it’s true, right there! It made total sense. And of course, the Jews didn’t understand. Duh.
But now that I am Catholic, I understand the meaning of the passage. And Fr. Terra talked a LOT about the responsibilities of the shepherd and the importance of leadership in the church. It was a very moving homily, and it made me realize that the emphasis was on not on “not of this fold”, but on SHEPHERD. “The good shepherd giveth his life for his sheep. (John 10:11)” That’s how that passage starts. We always read Verse 16 in sunday school, but never really read much about verse 11. We never really talked about the concept of a shepherd, and how we need religious leaders to gently guide us.
Did I mention how great the homily was at church on Sunday? Yeah, it was awesome.
And my missal came in the mail today. I can’t wait to crack it open and read it!
April 24, 2007 at 12:18 am
John 10:16 “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”
“they shall hear my voice”- Christ never spoke to the Gentiles. He gave that charge to his apostles. But he did speak directly to the Nephites.
April 24, 2007 at 3:39 am
So glad that the missal came in the mail. I’m loving mine
April 24, 2007 at 4:24 am
No, I’m pretty sure he didn’tspeak directly to the Nephites, because I’m pretty sure the Nephites didn’t exist.
Anyway, when I went through A MArvelous Work and a Wonder one last time over Christmas last year, I was struck by how much the “biblical evidence” for Mormonism doesn’t really seem like evidence at all. Sure, if you read the one verse, sandwiched by LDS commentary and firmly rooted in Mormonthink, it seems like it proves the Church true- as a missionary i just didn’t understand how people couldn’t see how obvious it was.
Now, I can definitely see why.
April 24, 2007 at 2:54 pm
@Moneybags:
Thanks! I can’t wait to really dig through it. Now, if only my veil would get here!
April 24, 2007 at 5:24 pm
You’re sure the Nephites didn’t exist? Ok I don’t know you can prove otherwise. Point is the Gospel is founded upon tangible evidence but on the Spirit on Revelation.
“But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”
Whether the evidence exists I don’t mind. I know that they did.
April 24, 2007 at 5:40 pm
See, this is the kind of thought that scares me.
April 24, 2007 at 6:17 pm
The kind of thought supported by Pauls’
“But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”
April 24, 2007 at 6:19 pm
“But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.”
April 24, 2007 at 6:21 pm
Heavy emphasis on “But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit”
April 24, 2007 at 6:26 pm
You are taking things out of context and I’m not sure what you are arguing.
April 24, 2007 at 6:39 pm
The context is that a testimony is founded on a witness from the Holy Ghost. NOT on tangible evidences. The former is more solid evidence than the latter. What if their was actual proof(and their is) of the Nephites here in America,… most would not believe. The key is to walk by faith not by sight.
April 30, 2007 at 1:07 am
Well, Jesus Christ & the early Christians have been historically documented to have actually existed, at a particular moment and place in human history.
A self-referential book such as the Book of Mormon doesn’t prove anything.
August 13, 2007 at 12:00 pm
Well, i know this, one of the last verses in Revelations is in not so many words that no man shall add or take away from this book or his name shall be erased from the book of life. When you ask a LDS most will tell you that the verse applies to Revelations only. Well Joseph Smith added his own thoughts about Revelations in Doctrines and Covenants which is regarded as scripture in the LDS church. If the Bible is A cannon or anchor of the LDS church than this verse alone discredits Joseph Smith.
August 13, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Oh, as far as the believing without seeing comment. That verse refers to faith that God and his Kingdom exist. It does not refer to historical evidence of whether or not a group of people existed or not. Which the evidence that people and events in the Bible existed and took place is there. Historians find evidence to back it up all the time. The additions to the Bible the LDS church believes in is not fact based and they have based there believes in the words of one man, Joseph Smith. The teachings of the Bible are backed up by multiple Prophets in multiple books. A fact that the LDS church can not claim about their additions.
August 13, 2007 at 5:16 pm
This is what the Bible, The true word of God and a canon or anchor accepted as absolute truth in the Lds church, says:
“But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 “And you may say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’ 22 “When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him,” (Deut. 18:20-22). Joseph Smith prophesied that the return of the Lord would be within 56 yrs of that time dating it to be prior to 1891{history of the church vol. 2:189}which we all know to have not happened. He also prophesied that all nations of the earth would be pulled into war by the Civil War of the United States {D&C 87:1-3}. We also know this isn’t true. He also prophesied that New Jerusalem would be stablished in Western Missouri in his generation{d&c 84:2-5, and 31} which also did not come about. Therefore as described by the Bible he is a false prophet.
December 6, 2007 at 3:00 am
So much energy spent on the differences in interpretation to the sub context and so little on what is agreed upon by both religions and the primary message. Both religions recognize the key point Jesus Christ is the Shepard – Gate Keeper and is the key to heaven. I’m sure we all can agree we have a responsibility to set aside the minor differences in interpretations and focus more energy on modeling our lives as muck like Jesus as possible by setting examples and teaching others around us the words of Jesus. As people hear the word and research on there own they will decide with their God given free will what is fact and what is fiction.